Is this 4178 a redial?

Dear Loungers,  I have been searching for a proper 4178 for quite a while and yet to find one where all the stars align.  I recently came across this sample and was going to opt for it but at the end decided to hold back because I have doubts that the dial is original especially the inking of the subdial and their tracks.  Any thoughts on this sample? Is this 4178 a redial?Also, along the way I came across another 4072. It is all original but the dial condition is just so patchy.  I would really like to have it but I am wondering whether the VC spa can patch it up while still keeping its originality?  Is this 4178 a redial?  Thanks for the sharing in advance.   Eric
I really can't say from photo but is the left of the scale
04/17/2014 - 12:53
"non circular" as for the 4072 it looks as the laquer of the dial has fallen off, the VC spa can patch it up but will never look as good as new
Re: Is this 4178 a redial?
04/17/2014 - 14:03
The sub-seconds dial of the 4178 is definitely a different font than the rest of the dial, but I will leave it to others to say if this was ever the case on an original dial.  I think the non-circularity of the scale is caused by photographic distortion from the sides of the crystal.  I have seen it before in photos of watches from this era. As far as the 4072, as Alex mentioned, VC can fix it up, but if you want to look decent, they you will need to have them restore the dial, which is likely to cost you both in time and money.  I had a triple date from 1945 restored by VC and they did a beautiful job on the dial, but although it is authentic (having been done by VC as opposed to a thrid party), it looks new.  It took about a year from start to finish.  Aside from the dial, the 4072 case looks pretty chewed up, too.
Re: Is this 4178 a redial?
04/17/2014 - 17:45
The fonts and type sizes were quite variable in this model. I looked into it when I bought my own 4178. I owned two at one time and in one the the fonts were diffent and in the other they were the same. If you consult the references you will find that in some cases the typefaces were diffent from each other in the sub-dials and then different again from the main dial. The language of the text also varied. Mine is French but I have seen them like yours in English. In your photo I can't tell if there is distortion on the outer rind from the crystal or sloppy inking. The posotion of the sub-dials wrt the inner rings is also varialbe. I have seen those subdials touching, and overlapping the 2 inner rings as in your photo. But they can also be separate and several mm away from the inner rings. My guess (if the outer ring is true) is that it is genuine. But you may need to send it to VC to be sure. Joseph
Re: Is this 4178 a redial?
04/18/2014 - 04:56
Thanks Alex, Michael and Joseph, The 4178 if viewed from a frontal angle is symmetrical, I am sorry I don't have a better picture :( the sundial however, is totally clean with no tracks (I have seen this piece up close). I have not pursued it though, a new owner has already took position of it and I wish him the best. As for the 4072, I will think hard about it. These Chronographs are hard to come by in good condition, but keep searching I must! Meanwhile I will continue to drool over other nice pieces in THL :) Thanks once again, Eric
Re: Is this 4178 a redial?
04/18/2014 - 04:56
Thanks Alex, Michael and Joseph, The 4178 if viewed from a frontal angle is symmetrical, I am sorry I don't have a better picture :( the sundial however, is totally clean with no tracks (I have seen this piece up close). I have not pursued it though, a new owner has already took position of it and I wish him the best. As for the 4072, I will think hard about it. These Chronographs are hard to come by in good condition, but keep searching I must! Meanwhile I will continue to drool over other nice pieces in THL :) Thanks once again, Eric
Another redial clue
04/18/2014 - 20:20
I hope you don't mind if I introduce another clue for spotting redials.  Although not related to the chronographs presented here, this example revealed itself recently and it seems like a good opportunity to discuss. The Greek Sigma symbol  σ SWISS σ  that appears at the bottom of this dial was a mark of the Assoication pour la Promotion Industrielle de l'Or, which was founded in 1973 and used to signify that dial and/or indexes were made of gold.  It's use seems to have been discontinued in the 80s and is inappropriate on a watch of this vintage.
Regarding the Greek Sigma symbol.
04/18/2014 - 23:11
I think that it was used a bit longer. I can still see it in the catalog I have posted from 1991-92 also on new models from that year see page 44-50. Furthermore I looked in a catalog printed in 97 and it is still there but now with two variations.  There is ¤swiss¤ (sorry but don't know how to make the Sigma sign), ¤swiss made¤ and they (VC) is also now using  swiss made with out sigma sign. An example is the ref 47101 it exist both as ¤ swiss¤ and ¤swiss made¤.   Great subject by the way. Kent  
Learn something new each day! Thank you gentelmen
04/19/2014 - 12:06
.
Interesting stuff Ken and Dean
04/19/2014 - 16:27
I had no idea that the sigmas had special significance.  But I do know it was use until at least the year 2000, as that was when the Ref. 47245 (31-Day Retrograde) was introduced.  You can see the σ Swiss Made σ below: (Kent: I had to use MS Word to get the "σ" symbols, and then Copy/Paste them to my post)  wink
Thanks dean, definitely worth an entirely new thread and study,
04/19/2014 - 18:54
I learn new things every week if not everyday reading THL, really thanks a lot. Will be worth studying the time line of this sigma mark on VC. Cheers, Eric
Thanks Kent and Dan
04/19/2014 - 20:20
for the correction yes.  LOL, I should look more closely at the "newer" watches!
Yet another redial clue
04/26/2014 - 18:37
This puzzle recently popped up on fleabay.  The dial looks completely appropriate to the reference, with the exception of T SWISS T.  The T indicated tritium material on the dial, which doesn't appear on this example.