About Patek Philippe below.

I written it before.

Advertising is PP.

1950 ( ! ) Vacheron& Constantin wrote in their little folder to their AD's :

" But the firm Vacheron & Constantin have no need of titles of nobility or of commonalty.

  Their true title of nobility is obtained from that love of perfection
   which is handed down from grandsire to father to son. "

Does anyone know of any brand,

who has stolen that message,

65 years later ?



Nicely put Doc, very much to the spirit of VC. (nt)
06/27/2007 - 02:22


Re: About Patek Philippe below.
06/27/2007 - 09:00
Hey Doc, that would mean that PP were at least 65 years behind VC and still merely looking after it for the next generation :-)
there is an interesting annecdote about the Quarter Millennium auction
06/27/2007 - 12:13

held by Antiquorum in 2005. Patrizzi toured a certain number of major cities proposing to expertise the Vacheron Cosntantin watches of those who wanted to have an idea of what their watch was worth, the idea behind this being of course to find pieces for auction.

This tour was a huge success but surprisingly even though many came to obtain information on their collection very few actually accepted to put their watch up for auction!!

It just shows the irrationnal power of attraction that Vacheron Cosntantin may have on collectors and which in a way explains why we rarely see the ultra complicated or ultra rare watches pop up at auctions because their owners prefer to keep the watch rather than to make a profit!

Fantastic story,
06/27/2007 - 13:08

which you and I discussed before, with Bill, as I remeber

I have heard it from several sources.

People just wont part with their VC's.

Ask Dom Bernaz, Directeur la Maison Vacheron Constantin,

and before that, Vice Chairman at Antiquorum,

he if anyone knows 


If VC collectors were more into profit than appreciating the watches
06/27/2007 - 13:22

we would have seen a Tour de l'ile or Saint Gervais showing up at every other auction and up to now (and as far as I know) non have been offered for sale at auction. On the other hand you see many pateks go straight from the dealership to the auction houses!!

You will see many AP ROO LE for sale as well
06/27/2007 - 15:00

after their release...why? what else? Money...money...money...these flippers make a lot of money on those AP ROO LEs.

Also, you are correct on many Pateks being offered in auction houses. My friend even asked his parents if his grandpa left any kind of watch (he was hoping for PP!)...LOL! Even in Japanese magazines, many shops advertise mostly PPs & Rolexes for sale. Now ROOs start showing up plenty as well... Ah, the beauty of market mechanism!  

yeah, kind of turns you off from collecting watches :-( the ROO
06/27/2007 - 16:27

and generally the Royal Oak is beeing abused by AP to a point where

a) you can't tell which model is a limited edition and which one is a regular production model

b) AP is taking the risk of becomming a mono product brand with the possibility of a huge hit the day (if/when) clients turn to something else.

You're so right.
06/27/2007 - 18:16

AP is playing dangerously and more & more people seem to realize the overstreching of ROO. This is not the AP 5 years ago... but I have to admit that I love AP but only RO. It has timeless design, still looks so modern even after 35 years!

But the ROO...it's like a fashion watch now :(

You are right about the Royal Oak factory. (nt)
06/27/2007 - 18:33


While I agree for the most part...
06/27/2007 - 18:30

If you will kindly let me be the devil's advocate here. 

Although it can be said that most VC owners purchase their timepieces for the love of the watch and not for investment, I believe that we cannot say that this is true only for VC, as the majority of PP and AP owners also purchase for the same reasons we do.

The reason why there are more flippers in PP's and AP's ranks is that it is simply more profitable and less risky to flip PPs and APs than most VCs.  Whether we attribute it to marketing or deliberately lowering production figures, it is still a fact that demand for PPs and AP (ROs) is higher in general and therefore, PPs and AP (ROs) generally hold their value better (with some appreciating or being sold at a premium).  On the other hand, the relatively lower demand for VCs means that a good part of VCs line-up still lose a considerable chunk of their monetary value the moment you step out of the shop. 

In a sense you could say that you would really HAVE TO LOVE your VC because it takes true love to purchase a watch knowing that re-sale value is low or substantial profits are not to be expected in general.  If your were a flipper, would you go for a hot Nautilus or the discounted Overseas?  (Note that I am not saying one is better than the other quality-wise)

Now, if demand for VC watches were to suddenly surpass that of PP's or APs, the law of supply and demand will dictate that  VC's will be offered in the grey market at a premium; you will have many flippers joining the fray; and a larger part of VC lovers maybe tempted to sell their pieces since profits are at an all-time high!  Exactly what is happening with PP right now.

Just my two cents on flipping.

Kazumi even though I can see what you are saying could it be that
06/27/2007 - 19:12

collectors hang on to their VCs seeing it as true mechanical wonders worth keeping whereas their PPs and ROO are more considered as "assets" which are sold as soon as the market is right?

Could it be that VC is the one who has got it right? That they have rightly placed the light on watchmaking and craft and the collector seeing this is more prone in keeping the watch rather than just flipping it.

Believe me I love Patek and AP (at one point in my life I owned over 12 APs!) but the ROO are replacing the Daytona as the cool status symbol to have.

I decided not to ever buy a PP the day I wanted to order a 5004 and my dealer asked me to fill out some kind of motivation letter!! Bascially I had to beg to spend my money! On the other hand you see limited edition pieces (for example the 2 models they made for the reopening of their boutique in Geneva) which are supposedly impossible to get and reserved only for their best clients showing up immediately at auction still wrapped in protective plastic and that can be extremely frustrating for the guy who really liked the watch but could not get it at an AD but can get it aftyer paying a premium at auction.

It just seems to me that VC and PP seem to be catering (volountarily or no) to two diffrent crowds: those who want watchmaking and those who want a profit.

You never really own a Patek, you just keep it til the market is right
06/28/2007 - 03:07

I get your point Tourbillon.  I guess that's how some (again, just one segment of) PP owners think.  I guess PP's marketing (which includes the image of PPs as investments) creates less attachment to the watch, as a watchmakers masterpiece, and a stronger image of a PP as an investent asset.  Like buying a car that you would probably sell down the road, you would naturally look for re-sale value, etc.

Although I would like to see a greater appreciation for VC, the rise in demand (leading to higher prices, flipping, etc.) is something I am really worried about.  Being a common "salaried" employee, it is getting harder and harder to keep pace with the rising prices.  At least it is a relief that VC is not yet being plagued by flippers (as  with PP) so LE's still find their way to real VC lovers most of the time.


I agree with what Tourbillon said.
06/28/2007 - 08:32

But Kazumi, it's true if VC attains the same status like PP or AP now in terms of HUGE commercial success, those flippers will start looking at VC as another potential "stock" to play. My friend who's the manager of AP Boutique in my city told me once that many of her wealthy clients (one even showed up with his 14-15 yr old son wearing RG ROO Montoya! Nuts!) bought those ROO LEs to re-sell later after prices have gone up. There's still a passion there if you ask me...passion for making money!

Seriously, there's got to be something to this story
06/27/2007 - 21:28

You got me thinking Alex. Would I ever trade my VC's for other models or just sell them for profit (which in reality I have not given a thought by far)? Hell NO! Just the simple fact this hasn't crossed my mind yet means something. I bought my VC's, and will keep purchasing, for the cherish and pure pleasure of having, wearing and toying them. I just love to get up every morning and think which one will go along on my wrist all day. They're all keepers. 

Bravo, Doc!
06/27/2007 - 12:35

Take that, Patek!  

Rei, I can always count on you :-)
06/27/2007 - 16:31

Yes, I'm having vacation......

9th og June it was 33° C and I was working like a dog!

Today, when at vacation it's 14° C, blowing 24 knots and the rain is vertical...

So, what to do?

Get in to the old Club House ,

The Hour Lounge,

and meet some nice friends

Yours truly


Always nice to see you here Sir :-) (nt)
06/27/2007 - 18:18