Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time

Anyone care to play a game?  This watch is currently running on fleabay with a rather low-key representation by the seller but photos show enough to excite a V&C collector; a ref 6087 Cornes de Vache.!  Is it real, is it not?

Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time

Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time

Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time

Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time

 

Re: Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time
10/26/2015 - 01:30

Well, I don't have extensive experience, but the ones I have seen look very different on the outside first. 

 - The lugs look too plain (that could be camera angle

 - I don't remember a railroad track on them

 - I don't remember the telephone meter markings on the minute totalizer

 - the hands are all wrong (hours and minutes should be gold and the coubterweight on the seconds hand is wrong (saw one with same counterweight on hour lounge though - hmmm)

 - pretty sure it had a telemetre scale (or neither - edited after checking hour lounge - aka cheating)

 - The crown is wrong

 - I'm almost certain the font and the markings on general on both totalizers are all wrong

 - The ones I've seen had Arabic numerals at 12 and 6, not Roman (but I know V&C did used to vary that a bit) [hiur lounge also shows one with no numerals at all]

Otherwise though... not bad!

And all that is just the outside  I'll let someone else handle the movement  

 

 

Re: Re: Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time
10/26/2015 - 17:06

Good one spotting the telephone toll markers, not a feature of the 6087.  Let's agree its a redial.  Case shape is correct but there is a reason for that...and other problems with markings.

I reported this to ebay and obviously nothing has been done! What a piece
10/26/2015 - 14:04

of crap this watchangry

OK, but lets still play the game!
10/26/2015 - 16:59

I give up on reporting to fleabay, but VC could register with them and make official copyright complaints which they will pay attention to.  Please Alex, have someone check into this as it would be the best solution when dealing with fleabay fakes.

Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time
10/27/2015 - 09:56

The only thing that concerned me initially was that the case at 36mm is too big.  I thought that the 6087 was 34.5mm?

I must admit that originally I thought that it was genuine with a badly re-painted dial and a few replacement bits and pieces (crown, hands etc.).  I am eager to find out more... 

 

David

Most of the story is on the case back
10/27/2015 - 16:17

Biggest red flag is the case serial number which is off by about 10 yearsl  Also the purity and responsibility marks have been etched rather crudely when they should be stamped.

Case size as described is off by 1.0 mm.  Lugs are right shape, case has correct screw-on back, pushers are right shape, so who would go to the trouble of manufacturing a fake case?  Didn't have to, LeCoultre did it for them!

Most of the story is on the case back

Anyone care to comment on the movement?

Well...
10/28/2015 - 14:28

The balance wheel looks to be missing the wieghts and the movement seems to be floating in teh case rather than supported by a spacer.  Is there also supposed to be n innner anti-magnetic case cover?  I am sure there is more going on here, Dean.

Best,

 

Robert

A "real" tragedy
10/28/2015 - 15:38

Robert I feel this is a legit cal. 492 movement, it matches on all points with this picture Alex provided some time ago, meaning that a real V&C chrono was removed from the gene pool to enable this piracy angry.  The balance wheel is in motion which creates the appearance you've noticed.  The fleabay listing did show an inner dust cover, another feature of the LeCoultre chrono as well.  How the movement is fitted to the case is a good question but unfortunately I don't have any reference pictures that show this on a real 6087.

Re: A "real" tragedy
10/28/2015 - 23:16

There are a few images of this movement that show up with a Google search, and it does look authentic but it's in pretty shabby condition.

Caveat emptor.

LeCoultre case
10/29/2015 - 05:13

The case is not from LeCoultre. The case in this instance is made to decieve. The LeCoultre cases are made by the same company as the Vacheron cases and has the sasme makers mark inside the case back. The only real differnce between to two is that LeCoultre case has the serial number on the outside, while the Vacheron would have the marking on the inside.

 

It this instance the case has the wrong lugs and case back. I would say the only true Vacheron parts here is the movement. 

 

There is another listing on ebay that has a case made to decieve as well. Recasing of old movements is a cottage industry.

Welcome back LSmith
10/29/2015 - 16:04

Can you be more specific to help us spot these in the future?  What is wrong with lugs and case compared with the V&C and LeCoultre creations, and what is the authentic casemaker's mark?

Not an expert, but this side by side seems to show...
10/29/2015 - 17:11

That the lugs, at least, are a bit different.  It could be camera angle, but the one that is authentic seems to have greater definition where the lugs meet the case (red).  Also, the separation of the band from the bezel seems to indicate shorter lugs on the fake unless the band is materially thicker, green.  Lastley, and not lug related, the pusher tops weem to be elongated by comparison to the original (blue)  Lastly, the bezel shape seems slightly different - a bit more rounded on the original and a bit more faceted on the fake.  Some of this can definitely be camera/light related.  Again, this is a amateur's eye, but the difference seems quote noticable to me.  Interestingly, this disproves my belief about the tachymeter and Roman numerals I mentioned above.  I guess a needed a better sample set.  Learn something new all the time.

Not an expert, but this side by side seems to show...

Re: Welcome back LSmith
10/29/2015 - 19:36

Hi Dean;

 

The research that I've done prior to buying this LeCoultre shows that the case was made by Cedex, Charles DuBois SA. This is marked by the hammer with 170 inside. The page with this info is http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/casemarks.php

If you look at the inside case back of the Vacheron, it has the same "Poincon de maitre" or makers mark. Also, the cases are just indenticle from close scutiny. 

Looking at the fake example, it has a tiny maltese cross and the "hammer" with a 12 inside. This refers to no company and is just made up.

JTodd has also pointed out some visual differences between the cases. 

What I find unusual is that this is not a repurposed case from some other brand maker, but seems to be built from scratch to be a new case for an old movement and dial. If you look on the bay for a listing with a price of about $6500 there is another recased movement with another built from scratch case, but this one with a certificate of authenticiy. 

Here are some pics of my LeCoultre for reference.

 Welcome back LSmith

Brilliant, I see what you guys are talking about.
10/29/2015 - 20:46

I thought it was a fisheye effect with the picture of the fake that made the lugs appear curved downward more than expected, but it could indeed be characteristic of it's manufacture.  The LeCoultre case certainly matches up with the 6087 much better.  Interesting that the legit case maker is from Le Locle and not their usual Genevois suppliers.

LSmith, thanks for sharing pics of your LeCoultre.  What year?  Do you know the manufacturing dates for this model?  When did LeCoultre start the practice of engraving the case serial number on the outside of the case back?

Very cool gentlemen, I've learned a lot from your discussion!
10/30/2015 - 06:05

Thanks LSmith, Dean and Jaime!  Keep it coming, I'm absorbing it like a sponge.

Re: Anatomy of a Fake - In Real Time
10/31/2015 - 11:30

It is unfortunate that fake watches abound and of-course the differences are very obvious to the discerning eye. However discussions like these are very informative in general and impart knowledge.