And some questions for the CR experts....

Robert dumped a load of questions regarding the manual Chronometre Royal wrist watches that deserve examination, but perhaps better to create a seperate thread from Joseph's new watch just to give both their due attention.  Really, the CR deserves an entire book enlightened.

The few contributions I can make are highlighted in bold print.  Please add and correct as you can, and we will make a collective reference.  Photos pillaged from Antiquorum and THL angel.


Regarding your estimate on when VC began using the Maltese lugs on the CRs, I came across a ref. 6111 with those lugs manufactured in 1957. Now I could use some help from you and the other Chronometre Royal experts. 

I am a little confused about the differences among some of the reference numbers of the Chronometre Royals using the calibers 1007BS and 1008BS, even after having reviewed the articles that you cited in your post as well as some past auction catalogues. 

Here are the reference numbers of which I am aware and some questions or clarifications I am seeking: 4838 (central seconds, cal. 1008BS, large straight lugs) - Is it the same reference number whether the watch has small or central seconds?

4838 with center and sub-seconds

And some questions for the CR experts....And some questions for the CR experts....

4907 -I am not sure how this differs from the 4838 -- are they the same reference?

And some questions for the CR experts....

Antiquorum Notes: Ref. 4838: The references 4838, 4858 (cannot locate example of this Ref) and 4907 are innovative both in terms of their shape and their size: 35 mm in diameter. At the time, fashion favored dimensions between 30 and 34 mm in diameter. Another example of this model was sold by Antiquorum Geneva, The Quarter Millennium of Vacheron Constantin, May 3, 2005, Lot 24.

6111 (central seconds, cal. 1008BS, maltese cross lugs)

And some questions for the CR experts....

6110 (same design as 6161, but with cal. 1007BS, small seconds sub-dial)

And some questions for the CR experts....

6161 (central seconds, cal. 1008BS, maltese cross lugs) - Is this reference always smaller than ref. 6111 at 34mm?  Is the main difference from the ref. 6161 size, or are there other key differences in case design, etc.?

And some questions for the CR experts....And some questions for the CR experts....

6075 (central seconds, cal. 1008BS, very short, stubby lugs/integrated bracelet) Is there a distinct correlating ref. # for a small seconds subdial version?

And some questions for the CR experts....

62227 - Is this a real reference?  I have only seen one source cite this reference number.

Possibly 6227? No examples found of either.

6340 (central seconds, cal. 1008BS, straight plain lugs). Did this reference ever come with a minutes track on the dial.

These appear to be the XL version of the CR at 37mm case width.  Notice one version with tapered crown.

And some questions for the CR experts....And some questions for the CR experts....

6107 (small seconds subdial)/6108 (central seconds).  These references look similar to ref. 6161.  I have only seen these cited by one source as ones presented to Eisenhower and Truman.  Are these actual references, distinct from the other CR references?  Were these the same size 34mm?

Eisenhower’s watch, presented in 1955, was a Ref. 6032 with cal. 453.  I cannot verify Hokinkee’s reference to a Truman 6108 with another source.  Cannot locate examples of either 6107 or 6108.

And some questions for the CR experts....

Any corrections to the above list of references would be appreciated, most appreciated.  Can case sizes be definitively assigned to each reference number or did case sizes vary even within a specific reference number?

As explained by Alex in the past, the Model Reference refers to the case design, including size and shape, but not dial or hands.  I haven't personally found any exceptions to this rule.

As you, Joseph, and others are aware, restoration of these pieces can be interesting.  I am particularly curious about dial restoration, as I have come across a range of issues on the examples I have seen thus far. If an original dial has been refinished by someone other than VC, can VC restore the refinished dial to at least close to its original state?  Would every dial from this period have the word "Swiss" printed on it without exception? I have seen at least one dial that otherwise looks original and unfinished (to my untrained eye, of course) missing the "Swiss" label.

My research indicates the requirement to identify a watch as being manufactured in Switzerland began around 1880 in response to American competition, but wasn’t specific to dials so cases were often marked instead.  From the earliest days V&C marked enamel dials with GENEVE then added SWISS at 6 o’clock sometime around 1936.  They switched to SWISS MADE in 1972 following a change in legislation.  Depending on dial design, the SWISS printing may be hidden underneath the bezel.  Also, a newly manufactured dial from VC’s restorations department may incorporate changes from the original; I’ve seen SWISS MADE added and & removed on these.

06/18/2014 - 22:37
06/19/2014 - 18:51
06/20/2014 - 14:25
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07/05/2014 - 05:53
You are my hero, Dean!
06/18/2014 - 22:37

Thank you for cleaning up my post, launching it as a new thread and adding illustrations.  Sooooooo much better!!!!yes

I thank you, sir, for you generosity. 

Best regards,


When did SWISS appear on dials?
06/20/2014 - 01:34

Just scanning the Photo Reference pages at the back of The World of Vacheron Constantin provided some clues as to when SWISS began to appear under the 6 o'clock position.  Some wristwatches had this as early as 1927!  However, that seems to have been the exception rather than the rule.  By 1938, the majority of watches featured SWISS at the bottom.

Yes, but were there exceptions?
06/20/2014 - 03:16

Were the dial manufacturers consistent in printing "Swiss" on all dials for V&C during the fifties?  I realize that you may not be able answer that.  I am wondering if CR owners posess dials without "Swiss" that perhaps VC has verified as original dials in their original state.

Robert, perhaps you can take on the task
06/20/2014 - 16:08

of reviewing the Quarter Millennium catalog for any post-1938 wrist watches without SWISS.  As every piece in this catalog received it's Certificate of Authenticity, any examples without SWISS are officially "authentic", which I suppose is the most important opinion.  FWIW, lots 64, 65 Chronometre Royal watches don't appear to have SWISS!  Caution however, as it may be hidden under the bezel blush.

But your question, "were there exceptions?", can apply across the board to all things V&C with a resounding reply of "YES".  The consistently inconsistant nature of the brand is essential to the charm and challenge of collecting V&C.  Oh, and great fodder for forums (OK, enough aliteration).

Great suggestion, Dean!
06/20/2014 - 20:24

I am going to do just that.

And I am RFLMAO because with VC or V&C, OF COURSE there were and always are exceptions!  Buty honeslty, I don't mind this so much because it adds to the fun. 

I will take a look at my copy of the catalogue and see what I find.  I did not realize that all of the pieces had been authenticated by VC.  The potential problem is that I think VC will authenticate a watch, as long as the case and movement numbers match up, even if the dial is not origianal to the watch, but they will include a note in the certificate to this effect. At least that is my understanding of the process when requesting a certificate of authenticity for a vintage piece. 

 The ref. 6161 in lot 64 is very much like one owned by one of our fellow Loungers, an example of which we have seen many photos at various angles, and I do not think we see the "Swiss" in any of his photos either.  If it is there it is very well hidden under the bezel. 



Re: And some questions for the CR experts....
06/19/2014 - 04:27

Here are 2 references to the black dial CR that Berny has or had. It may a one-off custom order.


A very nice CR Ref 6111 35mm


A photo for the thread
06/19/2014 - 18:51

Berny's 6111 with amazing black enamel "Stardust" dial...

Nice CR post!
06/20/2014 - 14:25

Hi Dean, thanks for putting all of this together!

I was not aware of Ref. 6340 before, does it house the manual Cal 1007BS/1008BS?   The lugs don't thrill me as much as the straight ones on Refs. 4838/4907, or the Quarter Maltese cross lugs on the Refs. 6111/6110/6161.

I believe that the difference in the Ref. #s are related to 2 possible differences: size and case back.  I recall most of the manual wind CRs that I've seen have screw down backs, but I've also seen a few snap-on backs.  Since the Ref. # refers to the case, these variations in size and case back would justify the different Ref. #s.

The Ref. 6110 is 35mm, with a screw down back.  The wristshot you posted is my watch, and the CofA says year of mfg. as 1955.  So VC used these lugs on the CR in the first year these Quarter Maltese Cross lugs were introduced.

BR, Dan

Great info, Dan
06/20/2014 - 16:23

As far as the 6340 movement, Antiquorum listings don't name the caliber but Berny sold one on Purists and listed the caliber as 1008BS...funny though, he also listed the width as 35mm.  Berny, are you out there to confirm?

Great info, Dan

BTW, SWISS at 6 o'clock

Great info, Dan

Thanks for adding these pictures (nt)
06/20/2014 - 18:50
A Purist (that other forum) has a 6340
06/20/2014 - 20:29

The caliber is 1008BS for sure with the central seconds, and I was told that the dimensions are definitely 37mm on his example. 

Thanks for pointing out the "Swiss."  Why do I always want to add "Cheese" after that word?  devil



Re: Great info, Dan
06/21/2014 - 17:56

I confirm.

Thanks Berny
06/21/2014 - 18:30


06/20/2014 - 20:44

Dan, these are images of the 6340 from SteveG's website ( 

I think it is an absolutely beautiful version of the CR.  The only thing missing is a minutes track for more precise time setting. 

Re: Eisenhower and Truman watches
06/20/2014 - 18:59

The Ref. 6032 Eisenhower watch, with Cal. 453, would not be considered a CR, would it?  Cal 1007/BS is based on the Cal 453, so I don't think VC would create a CR with the 453.

Is the black & white picture a Ref. 6107/6108?  It looks like it has the Alpha hands, which I believe VC reserved for use only on CRs.  (But you mentioned that you can't find an example of a Ref. 6107/6108?  It can't be a picture of the Ref. 6032 because cal 453 has small seconds).

BR, Dan

6032 not CR
06/20/2014 - 20:10

Just info for Robert's question.

6032 not CR


The Truman 6108 remains a mystery.  The Hodinkee picture appears to be from V&C archives so perhaps you or Alex can enquire?

The Presidential V&Cs remain mysterious
06/20/2014 - 20:34

Maybe Alex can inquire about this one, as if he does not have enough to do already.  This is  more of a side issue to me, because whether or not it is a CR (which I doubt it is since there is no metion of it either in the image you posted, Dean or in the engravings on the watch), these are not part of the regular production of CRs that we as collectors can reasonably hunt for. 

Regarding Truman...
06/20/2014 - 20:15

No mention is made of the Reference, but VC themselves mention Truman as a customer in the opening announcement of the New York Boutique.

"Presidents Harry Truman and Dwight D. Eisenhower each owned a Vacheron Constantin..."

This may not quite be corroboration, but it is moving in that direction.

Re: Regarding Truman...
06/22/2014 - 23:36

Here's some info...

Truman wore a

flight officer's chrono from Gallet:

There are other references including Wikipedia.

He was also given a Vulcain Cricket (apparently a traditional gift to US presidets.

But here is something from Hodinkee which mentions the VC reference:

Here's a pic from the article:

Here we go
06/27/2014 - 22:23

Hi Dean :) 



Hi Dean  I have been there, some rules and tons of exceptions going with them, worse than french grammar. Forget any certainties :)  I have done some work here but photos are now missing, which is a shame. is in red is doubtful or need to be confirmed. The Chronometre Royal has specific hands and dial.Exception/ afaik the black dial (ex Berny , now belonging to a fellow lounger) is unique, I mean here I have never seen another or heard of another one.If there are others, it needs to be discovered.My Guilloche dial is one of two I know with two successive numbers in term of caliber and case, and both in pink gold. I don't know if there are more.The 6340 has another kind of dial, but that ref is rare and I know one Guilloche dial in Pink Gold coming from KBS document.I have seen in Antiquorum database one with  a printed Chronometre Royal on a normal dial, it looked as a bad printing to me... -the first cylindrical caseno idea where the differences are between 4838 and 4907 and never heard or seen a 4858I would add the 6075 zith integrated bracelet in that category, but how many were made?A lot of mist here. -maltese cross Case6107 : small second (P1007BS) , snap on caseback: from the snap on caseback, I suppose it is a 34mm case.6108 : center second (P1008BS) , snap on caseback: I also suppose it is a 34mm case.6110 : small second (P1007BS) , screw down on caseback: from the caseback type , I suppose it is a 36mm case.6111 : center second (P1008BS) , screw down on caseback: again I suppose it is a 36mm case.  6161 mine is snap on guilloche dial in PG case with PG bracelet, it's 34mmI have seen 6161 listed with screw down caseback and therefore I would think more 36mm case. Antiquorum listing saying everything is 35mm is wrong. I have seen screw down caseback and all with 36mm, and the snap on in 34mm.That would be my vision, I don't say it is the truth , it's just my experience. -Flying saucer case.6340 , seen snap on and screw down caseback, different diameter, lugs more or less thin, bezel more or less large. And it seems to be everytime a ref 6340 but I am not sure...Thick mist here And there are some others, one of TonyC (or waws it another lougner?) which doesn't look like any other, with an integated bracelet and an odd 5 number ref...  Another funny detail the bracelet is also a rarity comes from Gay Frère and if I share these two photos you could say at first they are the same. One from Marv in yellow goldAnd my baby in pink gold They look the same... they are NOTThe YG has a 36mm case on the one with bracelet, my PG a 34mm case, the central part of the YG bracelet is wider than mine. The buckle looks similar but YG has a malteser cross moreover, mine hasn't... and it goes on and on and on... welcome in watch paradise with Chronometre Royal and Hell with its references and specificities devil François
All the spacing is gone -_- , the text is awful to read
06/27/2014 - 22:38

Dean I will send it to you per mail , the interface is not optimal with chrome.

Did you first write your post on word and copy paste? In any event I
06/28/2014 - 00:27

will check with tech guys so this doesn't happen

Anbsolutely , that's what I did
06/28/2014 - 09:41

I made a mistake on the first attempt and lost my answer, so I did it first in a text file ...

bad luck :)


Wonderful summary
06/27/2014 - 22:46

Francois, you've really captured a lot of details here, thanks yes.  This really illustrates that one cannot determine the exact reference from a photo unless size and calibres are also known.

Ref. 62227
06/30/2014 - 22:04

I found the thread referencing ref. 62227 started by our own Tony Chance:

In the thread Tony also posted a scan of the certificate listing the ref. number as 62227  So, that is pretty interesting.

Here is the watch courtesy of Tony, of course:

Ref. 62227

I have also come across a ref. 6075 from 1956 that does not look like the other 6075s I have seen thus far nor like the one you include in the post above.  This specific example does NOT have the integrated bracelet  I had come to associate with ref. 6075 and had long slender lugs.  The dial of this specific example also features longish straight hour indices as well as arabic numerals at 3-6-9-12. The hands also differ from those of all the other CRs I have seen.  Of course, the dial may have been refinished at some point and the hands may have been replaced.  I hesitate to post an image of this one because the example has not been physically inspected by VC and because the image will only be taken from the internet.  I am thinking that it might be misleading to post unconfirmed images of CRs in this thread, which is supposed to clarify and not muddy the waters. But the prospect of yet another variant on one of the known references is intriguing.





Great sleuthing, Robert
07/04/2014 - 00:21

Checking Tony's original post (thanks for including the link) shows his watch with sales receipt dated 1960 and the serial numbers corresponds with 1956, however word from Heritage Dept was that the change from 4 to 5-digit Reference Numbers occurred mid-1970s.  The mystery of Ref. 62227 deepens!

Is this the unusual 6075 Robert?
07/05/2014 - 03:07

Further to your earlier post, I found this online and wonder if it is the same unusual style of CR with long straight lugs.  The case seems to have the look of the bracelet 6075, with the addition of lugs for a strap:

Is this the unusual 6075? Is this the unusual 6075?Is this the unusual 6075?Is this the unusual 6075?

Here is part of the dealer's description, although it doesn't list a reference number and neither does the case back:

This Vacheron & Constantin Chronometre Royal was made in Switzerland around 1955. The watch is fitted with a manual wind movement calibre P 1008/BS with 19 jewels and displays hour, minute and second. The watch case measures 34 mm in diameter and 9 mm in height.

Yes, Dean
07/05/2014 - 05:53

That is the 6075 with the straight lugs.  Interesting no?  I have never seen one like this before, and I have been poring over my VC books.  

My feeling is that it is right
07/05/2014 - 18:07

the lug shape has been used on other V&Cs, and the main case body is that of a 6075.  Not sure about the dial on that particular watch, though.  Will send the s/n's to Alex and ask if he can confirm CR status or not...that should resolve this question!

Two variations confirmed
07/08/2014 - 22:44

As Alex noted in his reply to Francois in another thread, this piece checks out as a 6075 CR from 1958.  So we have one version with bracelet and one without, both sharing the same reference number.