Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

I was at Mr Meertz shop in Munich (worldoftime) because there was another full gold CrhonoMetre Royal. I think this was a unique opportunity to encounter another full gold Chronomètre Royal. Some of you may be jealous, well I hope so devil.
It is already (maybe someone of THL) sold so don't rush on your phone/email.

On one side, my pink gold 6161 with guilloche dial, and on the other side a 6111 with its yellow gold bracelet.
Before going to the interesting part, I must say that these are both fabulous watches. the full gold is a wonderful sensation on the wrist, and both are absolutely amazing.

One thing is that on photo, they seems to be of the same gold, in the artifical light, yes the difference is not so strong, but in the natural sun light, the color is then very different between the pink gold and yellow gold.

This was extremley interesting because with two simlar watches there are many differences, I think the THL community will be interested, especially of Dean. Apart the obvious metal and dial differences there is a size difference, and a caseback difference.
-Mr meertz is 36mm with a screwed down caseback
-Mine is  34mm with snap on caseback.
-And as a consequence the bracelets, though similar in design have a different size. Mine has no Maltese cross on the buckle, whereas the 6111 has one.
-crown are different

And I think both of them are completely original.

some photos:

Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

The YG screwed down caseback

Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

on the wrist
Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions
Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions
Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions

And my baby to compare the small difference in size, here in the natural light, that's where you see the true rose gold colour.
Chronometre Royal a meeting with two full gold, and some questions



That raises me some questions, who watns to play Shelock holmes with me? angel

AFAIK: with that kind of case there are theses references
6107 , 6108, 6110, 6111, 6161, 6067.

From Alex and Vacheron archive team info
6107 is snap on caseback with small second
6108 is snap on with central second
6110 is screwed downcaseback with small second
6111 is screwed down caseback with central second.

That I believe , I didn't see something different.

Antiquorum rate all of them at 35mm, I can already tell that that is wrong. There are 34mm case, and 36mm case to say the least.

But there is still question for 6067 adn 6161. These one are for me completely unclear.
For example, looking at antiquorum database for the 250th anniversary

This 6161 has a screw down caseback and an interesting detail is that the thickness measured is 10.9mm
http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=8&auctionid=79

This one is a 6111, it also has a screwed down caseback BUT, the thickness measured is 11.3mm, the same for the 6110 in the same sale.
http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=14&auctionid=79

When such a precise measure comes, I tend to believe it. So is it a cristal difference? another type of screwed down caseback?
If Vacheron Archive department have dates of production of these different references it would help.

The only other 6161 with a guilloche dial that I have ever seen is that one, and here it is measured at 10mm. it is logical as this is a snap on caseback. Other 6161 seems to have a screwed down caseback. And always with center second
http://catalog.antiquorum.com/catalog.html?action=load&lotid=64&auctionid=79

What to say about the 6067? Seems to be snap on and in 34mm
see here where the diameter seems to be... fancy: 31mm must be a mistake imho
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/16896/lot/103/
and at chirsties sale 2261, lot 502
or sale 5449 lot 267
here in english (33mm diameter is imho closer to reality).
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/vacheron-constantin-a-gentlemans-gold-270432-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=270432&sid=892b2f29-26cf-47c5-94ed-0308a3531b22

For sure there is no serial production here, but I think there are two different cases; one for the snap on caseback in 34mm, and the other one with screw down caseback in 36mm. But I would need your help to check if this is true on the references 6107-6108 which I suppose would be around 34mm and 6110 6111 around 36mm.

6161 seems to have different possibilities. 6067, I don#t know much, seems to be snap on. And both with center second.

If Vacheron Constantin can read this, that would be of great help Alex.

Thanks for your help guys

Francois
I think you have it right Francois
03/10/2013 - 20:06
Great sleuthing!  AFAIK there are two case sizes in the classic Maltese lug manual CRs, with the wider being the screwback versions.  Thickness OTOH may be attributed to a 1mm height difference between the 1007 and 1008 movements.  Perhaps extra metal is required to form the screw-on back also (may be a factor in the width difference too)? There were non-CR automatic models in the Maltese case style with cal. 1019 which Antiquorum lists from 12 to 13.6mm thickness for the same Ref 6073.  Antiquorum often uses "cut and paste" for their auction descriptions and as a result have continued publishing the same errors for years.  I've found this applies to measurements and caliber details the most.  Hopefully Alex and others can shed more light...
Thanks Dean
03/11/2013 - 01:03
I was especially thinking of you making this post. I know you could help.wink The thing is that there is 0.4 mm differences measured by Antiquorum on two watches with the screwed down caseback AND 1008 caliber. The only difference is the refence 6161 and 6111 . 0.4 is not a little differenc imho and I have noidea where it comes from. At the same time watches with 1007 /1008 and screwed down 6110 and 6111 with the same thickness measured. So as it seems they share the same case and caseback. That said, what comes from copy/paste, what comes from real measurement could be another story... blush We are not on a huge serial production for sure, so many possibilies are here. It is always interesting to collect datas here from everyone. Maltese Chronomètre Royal has its own secrets, some mysteries need... a crusade angel , if Saint Jean can hear us cheers Francois
reference numbers refer only to case shape (which can change due
03/11/2013 - 11:08
to small modifications). On a side note the case thickness is measured including the crystal and chances are that throughout time the crystals were changed/replaced which could explain the different thicknesses?  I also don't think Antiquorum catalogues should be considered as gospel (paroles d'Evangile :-)) for the reasons Dean mentioned
Thanks a lot Alex, so there are some case modfications
03/11/2013 - 13:41
Hope to see other examples in different references to understand it better. After the watch a new interesting quest begin, the one for more infos. smiley cheers Francois