Concerning the post below from Lima about oversized VC!!!

Has HL become a part of FleaBay.
Isn't it better that we check FleaBay ourself, or must we be guided!
We have said this over and over again.
Thin air in Lima?
Apparently it's only one , Fleabay, who can advertise here.
Is it only Dean and I who reacts? Concerning the post below from Lima about oversized VC!!!

BTW the book from 1940 is to find there too.
What irritates me most, is that I have put time on this stupid post.
And all others, because ther sits a human being in Lima and take pics from FleaBay,
and post here as he owns a watch. Concerning the post below from Lima about oversized VC!!!

I'll take a time out for a good while now! Concerning the post below from Lima about oversized VC!!!

Hi Doc, I share your passion and pain
04/12/2009 - 11:01
It's very frustrating and annoying for something like this to happen.  We have all helped out one whom we thought was an individual (not a business concern) who wanted to know more about a watch, believing it was more than just a commodity that was going to be offered for sale. After Dean's post, I also went to EBay to take a look.  The price being asked for this watch is unusually high.  I also don't understand why, after being told by Alex/VC that the watch officially dates back to 1951, he says it is circa 1949.  Even if the movement was made earlier, ddes the 2 years make a difference?  The EBay listing was made after our contributions and posts on this and at least one other forum that I know of.  I don't think there was any way to tell ahead of time what the original poster's plans and intentions were. Initially I experienced disappointment and some anger.  But I thought about it a day later.  If this type of post comes up again, I may be a little bit more wary but even if 9 out of 10 are not sincere Vacheronistas, I'd rather try to be helpful in the hope that the 1 out of 10 finds value and becomes a friendly Lounger who enjoys our interest and passion in V&Cs. I would really miss you Doc if you were to stay away for a while. Best Regards, Dan
Totally agree
04/12/2009 - 13:26
with you ! Doc, do not go away ! Berny
Re: Concerning the post below from Lima about oversized VC!!!
04/12/2009 - 18:10
Hi Mats, Actually  I think it was this person's own watch (personal or commercial) who used the Lounge to get information before posting his watch on eBay. Its not the first time it has happened but previously it wasn't so blatant. Shit happens, my friend! "Don't take it so serious, Life is too mysterious" (from the song "Life is just a bowl of cherries") Things have a way of working out in the end. and look at the bigger all your friends here at the Lounge ...and others! Regards, Joseph
Somewhat perplexed...
04/12/2009 - 18:35
I must say that I find this distinction to be rather odd. What I mean is that I do not really understand why forum members would be delighted to share their knowledge with someone who intends to keep their V&C, yet are offended when someone seeks information en route to selling. I do underdstand any irritation that may spring from someone misusing information, but beyond that I can't see the problem. If there were a magic filter in place, and the intentions of each poster were reflected by a flashing S or K (i.e. sell or keep), would everyone refuse to answer the questions posed by the sellers? What if you were not knowledgable about something in your possession, and went to research it before selling? Where's the empathy? Regards, Tony C.
Less perplexed...
04/12/2009 - 20:27
I don't think the real issue is whether someone is going te keep or sell their watch. I will be the first to admit that watches that I have shown here, I have later sold. It's not any different for someone seeking info on a watch they have seen and are interested in buying. But I think there is a difference in not being up front. I think people should be honest about their intentions and not resort to subterfuge and chicanery (how's about them words! ) in order to get information. Personally I don't give a rat's ass about what one does with their watches. After all its their property. But I think a modicum of honesty is called for. In general its not fair to take advantage of people and their knowledge for one's own gains. We have people showing clearly fake watches. Whether they know their fake or not doesn't matter. Sometimes they're honest about it and times not. But I think, even though it may be difficult at times, we have to take people at their word. But those who consciously omit facts, such as seeking information solely for the intention of profit is below my personal standard for honesty and fairness. My 1.8 cents worth. JB
Sorry JB, but I still don't understand.
04/12/2009 - 21:57
Jorge (from Lima) originally posted photos of his watch, and this:This is a oversize dress model. I assume for the movement serial number that it was executed in the 40´s, 18k yellow gold, claw lugs, perhaps 466/3b calibre, (cannot be fully read, because the bridge of the anchor covers most of it) guilloche wave pattern dial, breguet second hand, all original, mint condition. I would appreciate more detail information He then engaged in a lengthy discussion about the watch, and various related topics. Why does it matter in the least that he is selling the watch? Was he supposed to qualify his initial post by stating that he was planning to sell? Would that have stopped other forum members from engaging in the discussion? And if so, why? When you (JB) say:But I think there is a difference in not being up front. I think people should be honest about their intentions and not resort to subterfuge and chicanery (how's about them words! ) in order to get information. I don't understand how it applies to Jorge. Could you enlighten me, please? Regards, Tony C.
Re: Sorry JB, but I still don't understand.
04/12/2009 - 22:31
I cant speak for others but it doesn't matter to me whether someone intends to buy, sell or keep a watch. There are many venues to find information. It depends on how much work you want to put into it. And yes I do think it is important to make one's intentions clear. I don't think members would be averse to providing information if one came out and said that they intended to sell their watch. I might even consider it. But what I don't like is people acting in a manner where one thing is implied but something else is going on. The knowledge base on this site is quite vast and many people come here to pick others brains. Much of the information can be found elsewhere but hey, why bother when there are a bunch of yokels at the Hour Lounge who I can approach innocently and get all the info I want with very little effort. I think that people here expect others to be treated honestly and not be left with the feeling that someone has just taken advantage of them. It leaves a bad taste and a reluctence to help the next person that comes along. As far as Jorge is concerned, the above comments apply. If he had stated his intentions initially I think people would have responde or directed him to the proper sources. I expect people to be honest in dealing with me as I am with them and not have a hidden agenda especially in a public forum. Its similar to someone contacting you about a watch you have for sale in order to steal it from you or at least steal your photos to put up on eBay as their own (I've had that happen!). The difference is only one of degree. There's a hidden agenda and its not right, decent, fair, honest or appropriate. Now this is all I'm going to say on the topic. The aspects are pretty self-evident, at least for me. And it is my opinion only. JB
Re: Re: Sorry JB, but I still don't understand.
04/12/2009 - 23:14
Joseph, I’m sorry to seem argumentative, as I certainly have no quarrel with you personally. However, you say:I cant speak for others but it doesn't matter to me whether someone intends to buy, sell or keep a watch. Yet you obviously do care, otherwise the person’s “intentions” would not be important to you. I understand that you are referring to the intent to deceive, but I see little evidence of that in this case. Jorge engaged members in a discussion about his watch; he didn’t simply post once and wait to copy all of the information that came his way. He was, for all practical purposes, researching. Was it easier than consulting several different sites, and spending weeks or months at it? Yes, but why is that so important? And while we apparently disagree on this point, I don’t consider myself to be a “yokel” because I am willing to share my (hard earned, in some cases) knowledge with a novice. I see absolutely no reason not to. I don’t feel that someone must have paid some sort of special dues in order to benefit from useful knowledge that I happen have. It would be different if one were competing in a market, or something along those lines, but that isn't the case here. Finally, I find it ironic that the thread which Jorge started has undoubdtedly proven useful and interesting to many forum members (and will continue to be through the archives), yet it apparently would have been truncated or aborted had he qualified his initial post by stating that he was planning to sell the watch. I'd be interested in the opinions of some other forum members on the topic. Regards, Tony C.
Re: Re: Re: Sorry JB, but I still don't understand.
04/13/2009 - 02:21
Firstly, I 'm sorry you feel that I called you a "yokel" That was clearly a comment to portray the attitude of someone who would use other people such as the members of this Lounge for their gains. Secondly I do care what someone's attitude is in so far as whether they mean to be honest or deceptive regardless of what their intentions are. I think that's pretty clear! most of the Loungers including myself, here have been unstinting in sharing their knowledge with all comers. And no dues are required. There are many who lurk around as well to learn and never post. But I think that those that do post, for the most part do so in a spirit of honesty, friendliness and respect...and not to deceive. JB
Defense pro se
04/14/2009 - 01:25

Dear Hour Lounge Forum members: I have read your posts, many of them complaining by the fact of offering a vintage VC piece, after obtaining information. I should not have to say this, but considering the circumstances, I reply saying the folllowing: a) I am a swiss watch amateur and collector. b There´s no need to say that no one of us makes watches; we buy and sometimes, we trade or sell. c) I owned very few VCs. I like the brand, and I prefer vintage pieces in good condiiton, if possible. d) An expert eye can distinguish fine details e.g. reprinted dial, polished case, aftermarket pieces, etc. e) It seems that some of you, who said the dial was reprinted, disliked my reply refusing that opinion.  d) The selling or keeping of an item, iaccording to law, s a proprietor´s privilege, and it should not be questioned by anybody. e) It never was my intention to bother any of you. In fact, I must  thank everybody. JORGE

Me too
04/13/2009 - 02:21
I think that the issue is whether we were "used" by someone for gain through misrepresentation. I don't think that was the case here. The poster seemed to have all the information on the watch before our comments. I enjoyed seeing it here, it is a rare and beautiful example of just what made V&C the name it is today. As to it being for sale, if you were interested, you should have asked. Essentially, Doc and JB feel we should not become a clearing house for the authenticity of items prior to sale. I agree with this. Thus far though, the cases which have come up have not been too bad, I can recall only 3-4 times when a watch was shown here and then was listed on eBay. We may have even prevented a couple cases of misrepresentation by identifying fakes. If this happened with a frequency that really impacted the basic nature of the site, that would be a problem, and the site manager (Alex) would have to manually filter each new post. It's not that big a problem. I feel some amusement at the consternation expressed towards eBay, frankly. Yes, the watch in question was listed at a retail price, I didn't see if it sold or not. Some are listed far above a reasonable price, and they don't sell. Some are listed with no reserve, and are often bargains. It's a market place, caveat emptor. Maybe this should just serve as an example of good judgement by our moderator. I'd hate to see this page be just about new watches, with every vintage watch being viewed with skepticism and mistrust.
Your secret language S = ebay. nt
04/13/2009 - 02:38


Re: Somewhat perplexed...
04/13/2009 - 08:51
Hi Tony, I'm not against people that buy and sell their watches, as long as they legally obtained an item, they can do anything they want with it.  I may be wrong, but I believe that THL was created to develop a stronger rapport between enthusiasts and the brand by sharing information, history and passion in a common horological interest.  Based on my belief, the annoyance of the post in question comes from a couple of areas: 1. The appearance that the original poster is a commerical entity (if you look at the EBay username it appears to be that of an art/antique dealer) and less of an enthusiast.  In this case, I would appreciate it if the poster was up front about this.  There are other well respected watch dealers (well at least one I know of for sure) that actively participate on this forum but always in terms of an enthusiast.  When dealing with his business of trading in watches, he is always upfront about it if a specific post relates to VC on this forum (as far as I can recall, his posts on THL are rarely, if ever, related to a watch he is selling - probably because he is more knowledgeable than many of the Loungers and contributes as an aficianado). Anybody can contact VC directly to ascertain basic, authoritative, information about a watch if they have the movement and case #s. 2. Even after the original poster received information - some of it authoritative from VC directly, and some of it speculative based on the expertise/experience of the Loungers.  The EBay listing covers over these things as: A. "Watch is circa 1949" - why say this when VC has already confirmed that the watch came into existence as a complete unit in 1951?  B. While I believe the dial looks very good, whether or not it is original or a redial has never been confirmed for sure, but the listing says it is original.  C.  I still find it strange that, if the case and movement are both original, VC would use a case screw so large that it covers up half the movement #'s inprint.  (That VC would use 2 different movements for the same case/dial design seemed unusual to me, but that could very well be part of VC's quirkiness).  These points have been brought up on this and another forum, along with the suggestion of sending the watch to VC for definitive answers.  But instead the watch and all its components are listed as original without further research. I can understand that if the purpose of these inquiries is to gather supportive information to assist in the sale of the watch, sending it to VC for a Certificate of Authenticity may not be of interest due to the time and cost involved.  But if a reputable seller is going to go through the trouble of asking for assistance in knowing more about the watch, then why just "cherry pick" and gloss over items to make it look better than it may actually be?  If the seller is going to ask for the price listed, then hopefully the information provided would be more complete.  As I said in a previous post, I am willing to help others if I can, even if only 1 out of 10 end up being sincere enthusiasts.  That is how I have learned about VC and watches over the past 2 years and if I can help others in the same way - it would be my pleasure.  I hope this long diatribe provides additional insight to my previous post on this matter. Best Regards, Dan
Re: Re: Somewhat perplexed...
04/14/2009 - 05:36
Hi Dan – Thanks for your thoughtful response. 1. It is clear that most forum members would prefer that posters identify themselves as dealers (when relevant), and I don’t have any problem with that preference. I do not, however, understand the sharp distinction between sharing knowledge with dealers and non-dealers, or private individuals who who intend to keep a watch, and those who intend to sell. If someone is interested in researching a watch before selling (as any of us would certainly do, in order to be able to represent it as accurately as possible), why do so many forum members apparently feel uncomfortable with (if not insulted by) such a request? Yes, of course “they” could seek out information from V&C directly, but as we all know, that would be far more difficult, and the resulting information would be limited. And again, more to the point, why should such posters have to look elsewhere? 2A. I do not know. 2B. Yes, along with 99% of ebay sellers and vintage watch dealers throughout the world. How many people ever actually corroborate the authenticity of a dial – especially one which gives every indication of being authentic – with the manufacturer? Of all of your points, I find this to be the weakest. (And as a related aside, if that’s a re-dial, the artist who created it is a genius.) 2C. I find this to be your one reasonably compelling point. And I do agree that it would be preferable if everyone who sold high-value vintage watches were to go to such lengths in order to insure authenticity. Having said that, it is a fact that very few sellers, either private or dealers, go to the time and expense to send their vintage watches to manufacturers for such documentation. And in this case, given the information that Jorge received from a variety of sources, it seems to me to be reasonable for him to have inferred that the watch is likely to be authentic. Would it have been preferable for him to have qualified his assertions on ebay? Absolutely. But on balance I find his behavior throughout to have been fairly reasonable in the context of widely accepted standards. Finally, I'm glad to hear that you are willing to be generous with your knowledge, and wish that everyone would adopt a similar stance. Best regards, Tony C.
Thanks my friends. Shame on Jorge
04/12/2009 - 23:45
You my friends are as fooled as I am, but I got so angry of this 'once again' repeated ebay junk question. Here is a person sitting in Lima and watching ebay, he engage a number of well knowing men concerning VC, just for his own fun I accept honest people, who would write 'I see this for sale buy a dealer at ebay', and than his post had been cut! Well knowing this he post the watch as it belongs to him. We would accept a question like, I'm offered this watch by a dealer/friend/collector, could you tell me more about it, and we would do. This way will only lead to teenagers or non VC owners, just keep posting junk from ebay. This I discreetely hinted, is probably a 'Frankenwatch'. Alex, I have a suggestion that I think should start tomorrow. Let one of your co-workers save a search at ebay for all new Vacheron Constantin watches, worldwide, and you get a mail every time a new VC enters ebay. Than we are free! Otherwise we will always have to ask in the future is it your watch or from ebay. That I'm sorry I will still ask if the watch is in the hands of the poster,  there are still a lot of other dealers, but there is most 'Franken' on ebay.Jorge, I have a very good memory and this I will not forget. To my friends, keep up the good work, I'll sit back and think it over. Doc
04/15/2009 - 02:59
Hi folks:  Well I've been away enjoying the last snow in the mountains and return to find a tempest!!  For me the issue that I wanted to raise wasn't "dealers" vs "collectors" per se, but the practice of shilling, which can be done by private or business persons. So, here is what another watch forum states on the subject in their forum guidelines:If you have items for sale, do not discuss or post images of items on the discussion forums. They go  on to be specific about certain types of posters:Trolls, Shills, and Disruptive Visitors  A "shill" has an undisclosed motive or agenda, usually posting praise for, criticism of, or inquiries about dealers or products without disclosing some relationship to the dealer or a competitor, or the fact that value was given or received in exchange for or to motivate the post.  Jorge had flooded several watch forums with pictures and different questions in an attempt to generate attention for his watch prior and during his fleabay auction...and now continues with his Vacheron catalog.  I wasted time answering one of his questions at another site on the history of the ampersand on Vacheron dials and now feel somewhat stupid about it, as unwittingly I was participating in the shill.  I then studied his posts on other forums to confirm this intention and invite anyone else to do the same. Personally, I will not respond to any threads or questions from this person and I will continue to point out shills as I find them.  However, I feel the Lounge should have guidelines specific to shilling, similar to the TZ forum:  If you have items for sale, do not disucss or post images on the discussion forum.