a heads up on the ref 6087 to be auctioned in NY

A friend of mine who was at the Christie's exhibition in NY for today's sale tells me the ref. 6087 on sale was sold  by Antiquorum Hong Kong (lot 146) on 2 June 2007 with the identical case and movement numbers to the one being sold today at Christies, Lot 142. The one sold in Hong Kong had a completely different dial and hands. It has reappeared at Christie’s with a different dial and hands.

I don't know which dial is the correct one so interested parties should do their diligence.

Hope this helps

Thanks for the heads up.......nt
04/24/2008 - 19:45


VC Certificate of Authenticity
04/25/2008 - 05:50

Dear Mr JohnLy,

It seems there may a discrepancy between the authenticity of a VC issued Cert of Auth and Christie's postings.  This really deals with DOC's outrage over his 2005 experience w/regard to his 1002 posting, today.  DOC's pics clearly indicate that Christie's accepted a bogus cert of authenticity from ?... I do assume that Christie's would only accept one from VC.  Perhaps this is naive on my part, but since DOC caught them (Christie's) once; they should have taken measures to ensure it never happened again!  If one had access to VC's records, it could be easlly verified.  Christie's should publish what VC authenticates... or annote a place to go view the exact cert of authenticity.   

I believe you to be a person closely akin to VC practices.  Perhaps Christie's or any other auction house be made aware of VC policies, i.e. VC issues a Cert of Authenticity - affixed is a Cert No.; if one wishes to further research: one only needs to go to VC, enter the Cert No.  and voila... one knows what VC is authenticating.  In other words; VC put out the word that whenever a seller totes a CofA (especially an auction house of Christie's renoun) they provide the VC Cert No. in their brochure.  VC can charge a fee for anyone desiring verification of a proportedly VC CofA with the stuff that rendered it authentiic at the time of CofA issue. 

Mr. JohnLy, DOC, Alex and all the members of HL. 

Thank you in advance for your consideration,



the online catalogue did not idicate a COA and most important
04/25/2008 - 12:21

I'm not sure anyone saw the condition report which could very well have stated that the dial was either redone or changed.

Alex, excellent point about the condition report. We cannot
04/25/2008 - 14:41

damn christies if thats the case. Also I believe the original post was to bring others aware of the differences fronm the last time it was auctioned off vs today and then to do your due diligence from there.

Mr L

See my post below: I mentioned this condition report.
04/25/2008 - 20:50

Every time I am interested in a watch through Christies, I ask for the corresponding condition report, and till now, I am rather happy by the description given.

For this ref 6087, I cannot say as I was not on the auction. I hope they did the same as usually.

All my dealings with Christies have been very positive
04/25/2008 - 22:39

They have a great team working there and believe that if they had any knowledge of this it would be in their condition report.

That's the Cornes de vache....?
04/24/2008 - 21:16

Its somewhat of a shame....

But isn't that the catch 22 nowadays?  People seeking a profit vs. maintaining an original piece

Thank you for the warning velvet.
04/24/2008 - 22:16

It's incredible what people are ready to do for earning more money!

Did Christies mention anything about a dial change in its condition report? I hope they did if they want to be reliable...


It seems people heard you : lot has not been sold...
04/24/2008 - 22:41

...according to christies online.



Disgusting! Look at this !!
04/24/2008 - 23:57

It was the fine thing with Antiquorum before Patrizzi was kicked out, you could see all their sold watches on the net.

Now the new owners have destroyed that, you cant click up a watch and see the numbers any longer

Sometimes I saw that they had sold watches that afterwards had been heavily restored!

One of the most classic examples is the "savonette carrée",

which I saw with my own eyes and held in my hand,

at the Quarter of Millennium Auction in Geneva 2005.

It was beautiful, but to exspensive for me...

Here are pics and text from the catalogue 2005 ( and my handwriting, please excuse !)

And the text and condition.

The figures means, from left to right, the first 3 = Case very good, second 3 - 01 = very good and original hands

and last 3 = movement very good but the little remark at the figure, means that overhaul is recommended.

Nowhere is there any word of a heavily rebuilt watch, but I have a photografic memory,

so I knew I had seen that watch before.

When I came home I looked through old catalogues back to the VC auction at Antiquorum 1994, but even that seemed fine.

Then I remebered and I found it in the original shape !

Not so perfect, uh ...

It was a pic in "Wristwatches" by Gisbert Brunner and Christian Pfeiffer-Belli (ISBN 3-8290-0660-8),

which I can recommend.

So, fine auctionhouses are no guarantee for first class watches ,

only for first class price tags !

I write a post some day, perhaps in close time, if I just can manage to take the time,

of the biggest blunder Christie's have done in all times, that's quite fun



I guess this is even more incentive to buy the vintage VCs from
04/25/2008 - 12:23

the Maison. They are more expensive but at least you have peace of mind.

I might be naive...
04/25/2008 - 14:12

...but what is wrong with buying a vintage VC and refurbishing it? Isn't this what many Loungers do anyway?

Re: I might be naive...
04/25/2008 - 14:46

There is nothing wrong with purchasing a watch thats been refurbished, it happens all the time. The difference is in the value. When dealing with vintage watches originality and condition is everything. If the dial has been redone it has a dramatic impact on the value of the watch. The same holds true if a case has been heavily polished and no longer has the sharp edges.

Mr L

04/25/2008 - 14:50

Mr L,

thank you for clarifying -  I didn't know that...



Re: Re: I might be naive...
04/25/2008 - 15:04

Well there are many factors, including the reputation of the person(s) you are dealing with.

Christies and Sotheby's explicity make no claim to the condition etc of the watches they sell. If you can assess the watch in person, so much the better. The VC Boutique has the advantage of having the Manufacture at its disposal for "refurbishing" but it all depends on what they start with. But they certainly have no monopoly on expert watch restorers.

Like art, "provenance" of a watch is important, so one must be knowledgeable, skeptical, well-informed and not afraid to ask hard questions, but be courteous too. But you all know that already.

Caveat emptor applies whether you buy a vintage piece from a dealer, an auction house or the manufacturer.

I saw some beatiful pieces at the Boutique but some just as nice in Paris.



Re: Re: Re: I might be naive...
04/25/2008 - 15:15

There's a cliche that I think applies   "you buy the dealer as much as the watch".  In other words get to know who you buy from and build up a working relationship, but as you said jb be prepared to ask the hard questions and still do your own due diligence.

Mr L