Is this legal ????

I remeber when Cartier collected 10.000 or more fake watches and drove over them vid a steamrooler...

Some of them very obvious, but some are at least close, and peraps extra plate Is this legal ???? models,

the real pothos of the front ?? and if so how is that legally ??

Have a look.

I don't know if to Is this legal ???? or Is this legal ???? but most Is this legal ???? because some teenager get fooled.

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

Is this legal ????

130 $ each, which is to exspensive for emetic Is this legal ????


Re: Is this legal ????
04/28/2008 - 21:01

Is it legal? Most probably not...

But is it immoral? I'm less sure on this one...

I have a real problem with people trying to sell off fakes, passing them as originals and making people pay a huge premium... I can't imagine how depressed I would be if I paid thousands of dollars for what turned out to be a fake. I have seen so many Big Bangs on ebay that look almost like the real thing, it is scary.

Having said this, the company selling these watches you are showing us Doc is making it quite clear that they are only replicas (and looking at the quality of most models, it doesn't take a genius to work out that they are not real)... $130 per fake also doesn't seem outrageous to me.

So my view is that this is not immoral in that the seller is being honest about what he's selling, and he's giving some people who might never be able to afford the real thing and want to have a knock-off at a decent price the opportunity to treat themselves... It's a bit the equivalent of "costume jewelry" that my wife likes to wear sometimes...

When I was 16 I went to New York and I paid $5 for a fake Tag. It was the first watch I bought myself, and I loved it sooo much, and it did work very well for 3 years... So it lasted longer than any of my "real" mobile phones (why do these machines cost so much and last so little time???), and at $1.67 per year to tell the time, I think I got a pretty good deal... Kids/ people aren't that stupid, we have to give them a little bit of credit - a lot of people will buy them BECAUSE they are fake. In this case I am fine with this. The REAL watch companies are making enough money from their rich customers, as long as nobody gets hurt, I don't mind if this "knock-off" market exists...



The watch industry often states that fakes destry jobs but what I
04/28/2008 - 21:16

don't understand is how because the buyer of a fake is probably not a buyer of the genuine watch anyway so they are just two parallel markets. I guess as much as this can apply to a really high end brand such as Vc this may be moe problematic for entry or medium level brands such as Tag, Omega or Breitling.

Its of course illegal and I can't understand how such sites can be up an operating. Recently many different brands (Louis Vuitton, Tiffany's) pressed charges against ebay because they allowed so many fake items to be sold.

I agree with Francois because in the case you present the buyers are warned that the watches are fakes (I can't understand the attraction for a fake VC as it is not a "status symbol" watch as can be a Rolex for example) but the worst are the ones made with real precious metals and sold for thousands of $ as being genuine!

VC should put pressure on ebay to eradicate this type of sales (nt)
04/28/2008 - 21:20


04/28/2008 - 21:26

eBay has been doing a pretty good job with the high end fake watches. I used to report fakes but haven't seen one in over a year now. Patek as well as Vacheron used to be faked and available on eBay.  

The new market for watch fraud seems to be franken watches.

Yep, Franken is growing business,
04/28/2008 - 21:41

and sometimes not even the serious dealers know that it's a Franken they are selling.

I told my story about the monopusher before.

That's why when it comes to VC, if you are thinking of buying a exspensive vintage,

is to let VC see the watch and after that deal.

In my case it was the dealer who lost, first by buying the watch,

than by me forced to send it to VC before I was intersted to buy it,

and it was a Franken !

So the dealer had to pay VC 1.500 EUR and had a Franken VC...

And I was both unhappy and happy,

unhappy because a monopusher from the art deco is still my dream,

but indeed happy not standing like fool

I can only state that it's exspensive to let VC do it, and for most of my watches, I haven't,

but on the other hand PP's system of sending numbers and get a certificate,

doesn't seem to me especially serious.

On the other hand it's not my business, since I haven't and will not buy any PP



Franken or even worse fake vintage watches, I've seen a few and the
04/28/2008 - 21:48

quality was very very good

to be clear,
04/28/2008 - 21:49

is a franken a VC with all VC parts but from different eras, or is it a VC with some parts from other watches?

A Franken watch is one whose case or dial or movement were not born
04/28/2008 - 22:00


A refurbished dial does not make it Franken however I don't know in what category to place a refurbished dial which has been modifes (for example a silver dial redone as a black dial)

thank you Sir for the info!! (nt)
04/28/2008 - 22:10


I had not heard that story Doc
04/29/2008 - 18:35

I too almost bought a single button chronograph that was incorrect. Fortunately, I had a month in which I did my research and found that it was not fully correct. Even then, it was still a very nice item, but overpriced. I wonder if this was the same watch?

I feel that there can be great value in some classes of the "frankenwatch". Many come from parts of Europe like Poland or Hungary where they re-case pocket watch movements as a wrist watch. These movements would be in the garbage were it not for living a second life in a new case. And lets face it, it's because of the level of quality, even in a 1920 pocket watch movement, that makes these watches worth the effort of re-cycling even just a part of the watch.

I myself have a couple of "less than fully correct" watches that are still a great joy, but it is incumbent upon the collector to know just what is what, and what the relative value of an item is.

Re: The watch industry often states that fakes destry jobs but what I
04/28/2008 - 22:09

As you said Alex, the fakes market is not really competing against the high-end luxury brands, as they are more parallel.

IMO, even more so than for entry-watches (were the difference can still be established quite quickly), the fakes market really competes with the real markets when it comes to bags and leather goods... why is why I can understand the Louis Vuitton is fighting so hard against the fakes.

Tiffany's fighting rip-offs annoys me a little bit more... I know the rip-offs are illegal, but what bigger legalised rip-off is there than the diamond/ Tiffany market?? There is no real competition in the diamond market and it is a known fact that supply is artifically kept low to keep prices high (will there ever be a readjustment of prices to a real level?)... And then Tiffany's charges 100-200% premium for the same diamond as its competitors, when the cutting - and rating - is not even done by Tiffany itself?. If Rolex is King of Marketing, Tiffany in my eyes is God (or the Devil?) - I am amazed at how they can successfully sale such a basic product (a cut stone) for such a premium... This is really a case of selling the brand, and in the end people are paying a pretty high price for the turquoise box and a 6-prongs setting ...

But that's a little bit off subject, I apologize...

And I have to say, for the records, one of the best features on the HL must be the little faces... they'll provde you with hours and hours of fun

Interesting thoughts you have there Francois,
04/28/2008 - 21:26

bur I'm more scared of the people who buys 100 pices of these and sell them on ebay and other places.

I HAVE seen real fakes go for about 1000 EUR (!), several times, and that with 10-30 bidders....

That's the danger, when people see that others are bidding, they fool themseves and join in,

like a chain letters reaction..

And twice I seen just the DTR fake go high

About the mobile phones I can answer you, it's because Doc could buy shares in Ericsson,

to a very low price some years ago, and then sell at 4 times the price 2 years later



Re: Interesting thoughts you have there Francois,
04/28/2008 - 21:52

I know where you are coming from, and like you I hate the guys that are selling these fakes on ebay as real

Still with this in mind, i do not condemn the original cheap fake watch sellers...

If I may question myself, take for instance a Hyndai or
04/28/2008 - 23:06

whatever cheap car, that instead of four doors, makes a coupé, with two doors and call it a sportscar.

That also must be a fake.

It's the same cheap car/engine in a false shape, but it doesn't make it to a sportscar.

It could also be dangerous since the young or stupid buyer,

really believe he has a sportscar and drives like that, or... 

Anyway if we could save this thread, all repeatedly asked questions about ebay fakes,

could perhaps in the future, be less often asked.

That's my real point, because those who asks about these fakes have no interest in horology,

and definetely not in Vacheron Constantin !



Generally speaking, I would say no!
04/28/2008 - 23:19

If a site mentions clearly selling replicas (or fakes), it's then up to people to take their responsabilities if they want to buy some.

But otherwise, brands must fight against fakes and franken watches to make the market safer and avoid honest people to lose money and to be frustrated, and more!

It's not easy for particulars to know all models, to check case and movement numbers, ...

Those are bad fakes.
04/29/2008 - 06:03

I have seen some GOOD Panerai fakes , hard to detect unless you're a pro. It's crazy... some people play 'dumb' thinking that their watches are genuine ones when they come up to me and say, "I just got this, nice huh?" They don't know I work for Richemont  Just kidding!

Legal or not, how can you trust some shady online provider selling...
04/29/2008 - 12:13

fakes/replicas at a hundred bucks + and expect a delivery to make it to its final destination anyway?

One remark I would like to make: I do not mind posting replicas/fakes on the Lounge every once in a while since these scans can keep you updated as to the extent of how good the fakes/counterfeiters are... and just to have good laugh

Remember my little hair-dresser story...

Always teaches you a lesson...

04/29/2008 - 12:48