Specialized help Vintage oversize (38.5mm diameter case without crown)

This is a oversize dress model. I assume for the movement serial number that it was executed in the 40´s, 18k yellow gold, claw lugs, perhaps 466/3b calibre, (cannot be fully read, because the bridge of the anchor covers most of it) guilloche wave pattern dial, breguet second hand, all original, mint condition.

I would appreciate more detail information

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Interesting Hybrid
04/06/2009 - 01:13
Sorry I can't provide you with a reference number for this model but I'd say it dates from the early to mid-1950's.  Your watch features a 9 ligne calibre 466-3B movement which is usually found in smaller case sizes.  The extra-large 38mm case from the period usually features a 12 1/2 ligne calibre 454-5B, as in references 4735, 4716, 4538, 4539.  Perhaps the factory had an oversupply of the 466 movement?  As with all things Vacheron "&" Constantin, the mystery is part of the charm . FWIW, your case and dial are very clean and crisp however the dail appears redone, as the SWISS at 6 o'clock is missing along with the accent in Genève.  A wonderful piece!
Re:Original or hybrid at all?
04/06/2009 - 04:52

Thanks for your comments. The state of the dial equals the physical state of the entire piece, (gold hands, blue hand, gold case, movement, etc) so it can be original.

Let´s consider that the "swiss" or "swiss made" designation on lower part of swiss dials was mandatory since early 50's.

Re: Re:Original or hybrid at all?
04/06/2009 - 05:06
See this vintage dial that lacks the accent on "Geneve"
that's a gorgeous watch!!! What is the movement number? (nt)
04/06/2009 - 11:13
Re: that's a gorgeous watch!!! What is the movement number? (nt)
04/06/2009 - 18:04
The movement number is: 463222
not too unusual to have such a small movement in large case, I have a
04/06/2009 - 16:15
ref 4627 with a 38mm case using cal 1002.
Re: not too unusual to have such a small movement in large case, I have a
04/06/2009 - 18:05
Would you post a photo of it?
here are some scans...
04/06/2009 - 23:24
Re: here are some scans...
04/07/2009 - 00:46
Your visual data source confirms the pedegree of my VC...!!
Alex, the same here,
04/07/2009 - 23:12
and it's a watch that's only 32 mm and from 'les historiques' 31045. and the back, note that it's a small watch from 90's But the original showed piece, which we are discussing, the 'Lima piece' is very beautiful in it's different parts, especially the dial. But did the case with those lugs really came to life at the same time, and is it VC? I*m very curious about the lugs and the measures. hej Doc
Re: Specialized help Vintage oversize (38.5mm diameter case without crown)
04/06/2009 - 07:18
Hi Jorge, Similar watch at Antiquorum, Oct 16th 2008, #192. Slightly different dial, but guilloched, same numerals, no "swiss made" Used a Cal 458/3B; 37mm, 9mm thick. Same case as yours! (I love those lugs! very masculine. Case and movement numbers shown, but no Ref # Made in late 1940's Congrats, Joseph (sorry to be abrupt, just got back from a conference and have a ton of work to catch up)
Beautiful watch, interesting that different calibres were used.
04/06/2009 - 12:02
I think the 458/3B "fits" the watch better being a 37mm movement in a 38.5mm watch.  The 466/3B that is in this watch that Jorge is sharing with us is 9 lignes, which I believe is approximately 20mm and looks overwhelmedl in such a large watch. The 466/3B is a very good, chronometer grade movement (I got that from an old post that Alex made).  There is nothing technically wrong with putting a small calibre into a large watch, its just not as aesthetically pleasing to me when the back is taken off.  But then again, I never take the back off by myself as I'm sure to scratch the watch and/or cut myself. The dial and watch are classic and beautiful. BR, Dan
Re: Specialized help Vintage oversize (38.5mm diameter case without crown)
04/06/2009 - 11:40
Hello Jorge, To get more specific information about your watch, II would recommend contacting VC through their Concierge Service (this can be found on VC's website, just go to the main page and the "Contact" section. If you give the Concierge your watch's case #32236 and movement #463222, they can contact VC's Heritage Department to confirm several things: 1. That the case and movement are original and not switched after leaving VC's factory 2. The reference number of the watch 3. The year the watch was made If you are lucky they may also be able to give you information on who and where the watch was originally sold to. Best Regards, Dan
oops, the case # should have 6 digits...
04/06/2009 - 11:49
I didn't notice the last digit stamped on the case is a "1", your case # is 322361
Re: Re: Specialized help Vintage oversize (38.5mm diameter case without crown)
04/06/2009 - 18:16
Thanks again Dan for your fine and useful piece of information. I will follow your instructions.
Congrats on a nice watch
04/06/2009 - 18:00

Hello Jorge, Unfortunately, the technical aspects of the watch are not my strong points so just allow me to congratulate you on a very nice watch.  I love the dial, and the lugs do remind me somwhat of those in the Mercator and Sputnik (if memory serves me right). As to the small movement in the large case, well, that practice is still very much alive with the dimunitive cal. 1400 in the 40mm Contemporaine manual wind! (Although VC has finally come up with a more contemporary-sized manual winder in the cal. 4400). I hope you find all the information you are looking for soon (and do share it with us when you do). Enjoy your beautiful piece in the best of health. Cheers! Kazumi

stunning case and dial! nt
04/06/2009 - 23:18
Cousins (same size but different caliber 453)
04/07/2009 - 00:19
Re: Cousins (same size but different caliber 453)
04/07/2009 - 00:42

Let´s see the main features: Similar cases, lugs and dials, including hands. In fact, except for thr age appearance, those are second degree cousins..!!

VC tells me your watch was made in 1951 (nt)
04/07/2009 - 19:31
Re: VC tells me your watch was made in 1951 (nt)
04/07/2009 - 21:52


Merci beaucoup, Monsieur..

Re: Made or assembled?
04/07/2009 - 22:00

Alex: The movement serial number is indicative that the watch was assembled in 1951, but made sometime earlier. Thanks

the indication of date is when the movement was cased, it is possible
04/08/2009 - 10:17
that the movement may have been laying around for sometime
Type of gillocheage?
04/07/2009 - 23:11
I have heard that style of gilloche as being called "frappe" on another forum years ago. Is this correct? Are there names for the different type of gilloche cutting? My "Marlon" watch has this same style, and it's one of my favorites.
Re: marlon photo needed
04/08/2009 - 18:23
Would be very interesting the photo of your Marlon, to see the gilloche finish of the dial.
Re: Re: marlon photo needed
04/10/2009 - 18:33
Jorge, sorry for the delay, here are the pics of the dial;
SWISS may be there...
04/07/2009 - 22:02

Thanks Alex for confirming the date . Sometimes the SWISS at 6 o'clock is under the bezel and can be viewed only by removing the dial from the case.  Take a look at this Antiquorum photo for an example: Antiquorum Watch  In most cases where I've seen Antiquorum watches without SWISS, the condition report indicates a redial.  Joseph, they've already archived the data on the watch you mentioned so I couldn't see the report.  The accent in Genève is also present on pre-1950's dials and pocket watches. Now I'm not criticizing redials, as dials often age severely and it is a benefit to the piece when done properly.  I'm not criticizing the movement size either.  It's a beautiful caliber and I'd take it in any guise.  It's just points worth noting to someone who asked for info...

...and the accent may not
04/07/2009 - 22:55
I've been looking over a few variants checking on the occurance of "swiss" and the accent mark on the "e" in geneva. It seems that they do not use an accent mark on the champleve dials, but gilloche dials do have the accent mark. And now I'm brewing up another theory on the use of "VXN".
Vintage VC catalog (1940´s collection)
04/09/2009 - 02:02
For your eyes only...
Re: SWISS may be there...
04/08/2009 - 01:34
Hi Dean, I have the original catalogue which says nothing about whether the dial is original or redone. However, I did check the photo and there is no accent grave on the "e" in Geneve. The "swiss-made" may well be under the bezel. Its interesting because the next 2 watches in that catalogue are also VC. Both are from the late '40's. One has the accent and the other doesn't. Go figure! Regards, Joseph
Re: Spelling error may be..
04/08/2009 - 18:28
or simply the trend of the dial-makers of the time. Please note that the "Geneve" (french word) in VC movements bridges is  always unaccented
Re: Redone dials cover basrelief goldencircle indicators
04/08/2009 - 18:35
as everyone can see, the Antiquorum dial differs in that detail with mine...Note the basrelief indexes uncover by any paint
Re: Re:I mean the paint in redone dials covers the indexes
04/08/2009 - 18:38
and in original ones, like mine, the indexes are golden, and circular-polished.. very finely handmade executed task
Guess what's for sale on FleaBay....
04/08/2009 - 19:19
OK, should have guessed after this newbie flooded the watch forums with pictures of his watch .   I know we have many dealers that participate in the forum and I'd just like to thank and recognize them for keeping a clear seperation between our discussions and their business...much appreciated .
You are right...
04/08/2009 - 20:20
...and BTW this is expensive !
Re: You are right...
04/08/2009 - 20:30
T'as raison, Berny! It expensive at half the price he's asking! Regards, Joseph
Re:I hope you enjoyed the photos and the discussion...
04/08/2009 - 23:02
because I really enjoyed your points of view, many of them authoritative.
Re: Re:I hope you enjoyed the photos and the discussion...
04/09/2009 - 01:37
Just to put things into perspective... I should have mentioned this in a previous post. But the estimated price of the watch in the Antiquorum auction last October was $3,000-$5000USD. JB
Re: I´ve posted a vintage VC catalog. See it.
04/09/2009 - 02:17
Let´s share the catalog...